Mix March Madness 2012 Webcomics Tournament Finals: Gunnerkrigg Court vs. Goblins!
UPDATE: Comments here are closed and a new thread for comments has been started here. You can vote at either page.
It’s here– the final battle of our webcomics tournament between Thomas Siddell’s Gunnerkrigg Court and Tarol Hunt’s Goblins!
Both strips pulled off tremendous upsets in the last round, beating such webcomics as Homestuck and Order Of The Stick, to make it to the final showdown. We remind you that the second place winner will get $50, with the grand prize winner walking away with $100. (We’d also like to point out that if you’re a fan of either of these strips, you may enjoy our own GrimJack: The Manx Cat by John Ostrander and Timothy Truman and Demons of Sherwood by Robert Tinnell and Bo Hampton. End of soft sell.)
The finals start right now, and ends this Monday night, April 9, at 11:59 PM, Eastern Daylight Time. (Yes, we’re making allowances for Good Friday, Passover, the sabbath, and Easter). Go vote!
Mix March Madness Webcomics Tournament Finals
And to all of you who voted, thank you! We hope you had fun, and we hope that you discovered new webcomics you never saw before– we certainly did. (And based on the stats of clicks, you did too, we saw hundreds of thousands of clicks to other webcomics.) We hope you’ll keep coming back to ComicMix, and that you join us in May for our Adults Only NSFW May Mayhem!
To see the previous divisions and how they finished, click here, or look at our directory for all the nominated webcomics.
- Vote in the Mix March Madness 2012 Webcomics Tournament First Round! (comicmix.com)
- Announcing Mix March Madness 2012 Nominations! (comicmix.com)
- Mix March Madness 2012 Webcomics Tournament Round 2 – Vote Now! (comicmix.com)
- Predict the Mix March Madness Final Four and Win $50 Gift Card! (comicmix.com)
- Round 3 of Mix March Madness 2012 Webcomics Tournament – Vote Now! (comicmix.com)
- Sweet 16 of Mix March Madness 2012 Webcomics Tournament – Vote Now! (comicmix.com)
- Elite Eight of Mix March Madness 2012 Webcomics Tournament – Vote Now! (comicmix.com)
- Final Four of Mix March Madness 2012 Webcomics Tournament – Vote Now! (comicmix.com)
This is really a tough choice now.
I read Goblins for years now and found GKG through this tournamment and can´t stop reading it.
I like the art in both comics, I like the plot, the pacing…
I propably end up in voting for both comics equally often >.> but I just can´t decide.
This is exactly my situation. I love goblins and have read it for years, but then I read thru GKC in two days and loved it just as much. I’m probably going to abstain.
Actually, for me it is the reverse. I have been reading GKC for ages, and found Goblins through this tournament (thank goodness, I love it). My vote will still go to GKC, but Goblins definitely deserved to get this far!
Btw, Congratulations to the REAL winners: The people that found new webcomics to follow!
Gunnerkrigg Court. Having now read 7 of the final 8 comics, I honestly don’t think Goblins deserved to make it that far. It’s good, but not in the same league as some of the other comics in the top 8, let alone the top 4.
Webcomics aren’t only comics, they are also about the author, the fans and the community. By itself, Goblins doesn’t have mind-blowing art or text (although I like the comic a lot and find it lovely, moving etc.), but everything around it has got me hooked. I guess that’s a bit what MSPA fans feel like (maybe a bit more zealously than me, i.e. they say their favorite comic is perfect).
Anyway, I am happy to see Goblins get here and hope it will win, but I like GC a lot as well.
MSPA is DEFINITELY not perfect. It’s just that it’s REALLY polarizing. Most people either love it life crazy or hate it to death; it has a lot less in between then usual. Therefore, quite a lot of fans you talk to will really, really like it.
I’m in between! :D My friend likes it a lot and always sends me things from the fandom and random pages and explains things to me, so I’ve heard a lot about it, and I think it’s pretty alright. But at the same time, I don’t think I’ll ever want to actually read it. It’s just not my style of comic.
Well, two things:
1. You haven’t actually read it, so you don’t count. >:P
2. I never said that there was NOBODY in between, just a lot less than most comics.
1. D: I so do count. I’ve seen enough of it to judge! That’s like saying you need to read all four Twilight books to say you don’t like it.
2. Oh yes, I know. :3 But I haven’t seen many people commenting who are in the middle, so~
“Both strips pulled off tremendous upsets in the last round, beating such webcomics as Homestuck and Order Of The Stick, to make it to the final showdown.”
“Both strips […] beating […] Homestuck”
Votes for MSPA/Homestuck: 11,250
Votes for Goblins: 9,994
Seriously, this whole brackets thing is incredibly inaccurate, MSPA would take second place if this was done by number of votes, or even first if Andrew Hussie hadn’t told his fans to vote for GKC instead.
Actually, I’m pretty sure that quite a few Goblins fans (myself included) are also MSPA fans, and voted for both comics last turn – I know of quite a few like me from just the forums.
The same way Goblins-OOTS fans were voting for both comics up until the previous round, at which point they had to choose between them, dropping the number of votes each one received.
This bracket method is actually the most accurate for comparing two different comics, as it forces you to choice between them – what it fails at is comparisons across the brackets.
Stop complaining, accept it, move on, and vote for Gunnerkrigg already.
Wow, RJ. So classy.
I think the intended meaning of the sentence was that GC and Goblins pulled off tremendous upsets: beating MSPA and OOTS respectively. (Not they both pulled off both feats)
It would be an entirely different contest if it were just a matter of total votes, and it is much harder to compare the vote tallies across games under a bracket system. In this particular contest voters can vote in both contests and vote AGAINST comics, so comparing final vote tallies is almost meaningless.
In my case, I read GC and I started to read MSPA… and found that I had no interest in reading hundreds if not thousands of pages just for MSPA to get good when the opponent was infinitely better. So in that contest I was mainly voting AGAINST MSPA, even though my favorite in the contest was and still is Goblins. I didn’t bother voting in the Goblins v OOTS contest after the first day because it was ahead by a sizable margin.
My main point is that the contest wasn’t between MSPA and Goblins, it was between MSPA and GC. If this were just about vote totals it would be an entirely different contest, it WOULD just be a popularity contest because people wouldn’t be forced to choose directly between two specific comics they might like.
Anyways… my $.02
First of all, that is an intentional misreading of that post. It obviously is not saying what you are making it look like it says by adding “…”
Second, when it comes to most votes, you only looked at round 6 for your data, so let us look at a more complete picture of such information.
In Round 1, Cyanide and Happiness and Girl Genius both beat MSPA in that bracket (and 8 other webcomics, including Goblins, also beat it).
In Round 2 MSPA again was behind C&H and GG in its bracket (and 13 other comics, including CAD, which lost that round, and Goblins, beat it).
In Round 3 MSPA was still behind C&H and GG in the Giraud bracket (and 12 other comics, meaning that the only winner that MSPA got more votes than was Something Positive).
In Round 4 MSPA did much better, but still didn’t manage to take the top spot in votes (that honor went to xkcd).
In Round 5, MSPA again ended up getting the second most votes (but this time, it ended behind Goblins).
Finally, in Round 6, it again did not get first, as that went to GKC.
Overall, though, Goblins got more votes than MSPA 4 out of 6 rounds (and had more total votes, by a few thousand), so that argument doesn’t really help your cause. Goblins has made it to the finals, and they deserve to be there. If you want to total up votes from every round, go ahead, but it still wouldn’t give MSPA the win over Goblins.
MSPA had more votes at the final. What happened? Did some Florida shenanigans happen?
lost by 40 in the last moment
If you mean huge turnouts and riots at the polls, then yes. :-D
Gunnerkrigg Court is the best comic currently running on the internet.
Goblins is, on the other hand, a middling D&D-based fanwank with Not Very Good Artwork and average writing.
There is absolutely no comparison between the two.
I’m sorry, but GKC is nothing special in the art department so I’m not sure where you are going by putting down Goblins’ artwork. And more to the point, these are both great comics so there is no need to start throwing insults.
Thank you for well-reasoned and polite contribution.
I am not a D&D fan – I’ve never played it in my life, and likely never will. However, Goblins is still my favourite webcomic on the internet, not just because I enjoy the story and art, but also because of the reasons Shares pointed out above – the active, close-knit community, and the willingness of the author to regularly interact with his fans as equals. THunt is a genuinely nice guy, and puts his heart and soul into the comic, often at the cost of his own happiness.
Now, I’ll admit I don’t know much about GC’s community – I first read the comic over a year ago now, and while I did find it interesting, it’s never been a ‘regularly checking for updates’ comic for me. But, from what I’ve seen checking the forums, it seems to be largely quiet and, for lack of a better description, dead – again, just my (quite possibly wrong) opinion.
Anyway, I’m getting a bit off tangent here – my point is, there are a lot of people who love Goblins for what it is, not just as a lossly D&D based comic, but also a great community and distraction from the more mundane apsects of real life. So, if you could refrain from resorting to insults, it would be much appreciated.
Dude, he didn’t insult anyone, he was just stating his opinion on the quality of the comic, and there are a ton of people who agree that Goblins, despite its popularity, isn’t particularly good.
I’m sorry, but “a middling D&D-based fanwank with Not Very Good Artwork and average writing.” sounds very much like an insult to me. Maybe I’m just not good at detecting negativity through the internet.
Also, I have nothing against opinions – what I dislike are opinions that are seriously stated as unquestionable facts, especially if they have a negative, insultive undertone to them.
It’s an insult against the comic, not a person.
So someone’s opinion isn’t valid if it’s negative?
If he was trying to insult, the language could have been much worse than “middling”, “average” and “not very good.”
“…Not Very Good Artwork and average writing”
I’m sorry, but did you even read past the first few pages? Yes, the art sucks at first, but Thunt has developed a HELL of a lot since then. Just go look at his forenote at the very start; he even specifically states it.
And yes, it starts off a bit slow and comedy-based, but again, it picks up a ton from there. Don’t discount an entire comic based off the beginning.
I doubt that you’ve even read any substantial amount of Goblins, and even if you think the art is “not very good”, let’s face it, it still surpasses Gunnergrigg Court’s (while Court’s art is still decent and adequate).
aw, don’t be too hard on rj, he’s just stressed out because he knows that as much as he pushed the mspa fans to vote gkc instead, if gkc loses now it’s basically his butt on the line ;j
If Goblins sucks so bad, how did it make it into the Finale?
I think Goblins is a great webcomic. The art has come so far since its inception and keeps getting better. I love the intertwined story lines and it looks to get better and better as the plots progress. Tarol has been a fulltime artist/writer/anything the comic needs for a long while now and Tom Siddell has only recently made that step. (Go him, btw.)
I’m also a huge fan of Gunnerkrigg Court. The storyline for it is pretty good, although I want to throttle a couple of the characters every so often and a couple chapters completely lost me for a bit.
They both deserve to win so good luck to them both!
While I will not argue your conclusion that Goblins deserves to be here (I haven’t finished reading it yet, so I withold any judgement until then), your rhetorical argument “If Goblins sucks so bad, how did it make it into the finals?” is flawed because of the nature of the bracket-style tournament. Getting this far only shows that it is better (assuming the contest is valid) than other comics in the same bracket- you cannot conclude anything about how it compares to everything not in the same bracket.
(tldr: Making it into the finals does not make it at least 2nd best. It only makes it at least (n/2 + 1)th best where n is the number of comics in the tournament)
The mere fact that Goblins -soundly- defeated such greatness as Looking for Group and Order of the Stick says that it deserves to be where it is. I won’t say anything bad about GC because there’s nothing bad to say about it, I like it -almost- as much as I do Goblins.
Perhaps a way to guarantee the true winners in a given round does indeed advance, is to make it so you can cast one vote for one comic in each round, then everyone would only vote for their favorite.
It is a mystery.
I don’t hate Goblins. But I find it overall mediocre, plagued with poor pacing (fight scenes that take forever, random dungeons with plot-irrelevant challenges that also take forever to solve and cannot even begin to have a justification to exist beyond “it’s a dungeon”, clumsy Deus-Ex-Machina avoidance by dropping huge walls of texts on the unsuspecting reader, etc.), mediocre art (the characters look misshapen as soon as they start to move), and a plot making hazardous digressions (did we really need to be introduced to parallel universes and an evil parallel universe twin of a protagonist as part of a random dungeon on the path of a secondary group of characters?).
There certainly are worse comics out there, including amongst the nominations to this contest; but the idea Goblins won over OotS still puzzles me, and the idea it might win over Gunnerkrigg Court is just … It’s just this.
Gunnerkrigg Court is one of the best long-form comics on the web, the art, the writing, the characterization, the panel layout… — all parts of it are excellent; and the author is humble and professional about it. Gunnerkrigg Court really deserve a win here, on all accounts.
First point, I’m assuming you’re talking about the Axe of Prissan text when you mention Deus Ex Machina (as that is one of 2 instances where I can remember Thunt using walls o’ text), and I can understand why you might classify it as such. However, I strongly disagree with the notion that this is some kind of avoidance strategy on Thunt’s part and that it is anything short of well thought out. The comic is written out in its entirety, and has been since well before the scene in question. That was an unfortunate case where the information about the axe could not be revealed prior to the page where a particular character appears to be killed without losing the impact of the next page. I think whatever awkwardness was caused by that 1 page is mitigated by the fact that the item in question actually has an astonishingly detailed history. Thunt has released pages on 7 of the 13 known past named owners of the Axe of Prissan (not including the two axe wielders who actually appear in the comic).
Unfortunately, many of these more intricate background details are either only mentioned in hardcopy or ebooks, or they were only up temporarily. As a result, the amount of background detail is difficult to pick up on for the average reader. (Thunt took down all of the axe pages shortly after revealing them so that they can be used in a future ebook). However, if you look for it you can spot elements of the comic that don’t appear for several books in the comic.
Personally, I think that the fact that the entire story is planned out is one of the strongest points of the comic.
Sorry to disagree here someone, but I see it differently.
Goblins art is a bit rough somedays yes but the story has been one of my favorites, providing plenty of re-reading and enjoyment on a regular basis.
Gunnerkrigg however despite being one of my constant reads doesn’t provide NEAR the re-reading that I get out of Goblins.
You hate the random dungeons and the fight scenes and the side plots but I find them endearing.
Not bashing on GKC, I do agree its one of the best comics but I didn’t chose it over goblins.
The types of narrative “flaws” you cite, someone, seem to me to be satire of such flaws, as they present themselves in the way many people run DnD or similar tabletop RPGs. To me, it’s clever, amusing satire of such gaming conventions, and that’s what tickles me about it, and why it’s had my vote most rounds, except when it was up against my favorite comic, Unsounded.
Wait, it was never against Unsounded. What was I smoking? Wishful thinking that Unsounded made it that far, heh.
Personally, I’m voting for Goblins.
It’s not that Gunnerkrigg is a bad comic, I just think Goblins is far superior. Gunnerhrigg just doesn’t appeal to me, even though it’s high quality.
I think that next time, a better thing to do would be to go not on brackets, but just on voting numbers alone.
Then we wouldn’t have the ‘blahblah only won because it was against bluhbluh’ or ‘bluhbluh would be winning if the voters weren’t divided’.
To check for popularity alone, yes, that would be the best method.
What I think would make a far more interesting contest, would be if the comics competed in different categories: artwork, writing, pacing (both from reading it as it updates and reading the archives in one go, as they tend to be very different), style, characters (their personalities and memorability), character designs, setting, background art, originality, presence of both the creator and the fanbase (how they behave, if they’ve done interesting activities/charities, how nice they play with other fanbases, etc.), those kinds of things.
I think it would be interesting because, by comparing it to the popularity contests, it would help us see just what combination of factors -or what factors by themselves- attract the most interest, and what kind of interest they attract.
We did consider breaking it up by frequency; as a strip that does a page a week is different than a daily strip, and on and on. We may still do so at some point.
In such a case, MSPA would be in its own “frequency bracket” by a very wide margin.
Yeah, I think some things would be interesting next year are:
1) Polls visible only to ComicMix
2) Have different categories for formats/genres.
Just my two cents, but I think it might be a good idea that future tournaments at ComicMix not include a comment thread. I notice that people tend to get more nasty when they can so easily post a somewhat anonymous comment in this particular section of the page area. However, in the social media plugin area, I notice that the conversation is much more civil, (perhaps because they can only hide so much behind a twitter or Facebook account). Providing a place for such flame wars doesn’t benefit anyone, the comics, the authors, ComicMix, or its sponsors. I respectfully think this feature should be discontinued if it continues to be abused.
Probably the BEST way to do it would be a Round-Robin, since that gives the most information and is the most fair. It would take way too long, though.
Not if all the voting proceeded simultaneously
Ah yes, that’s true. You could parallize it into one round. Of course then it would have 16,256 poll options which /might/ be a bit off-putting :D
Of course, that allows for users to vote in ways that violate transitivity (ie. A is better than B is better than C is better than A) which isn’t really meaningful.
It could instead, then, be changed to a ‘rank these comics in order’ in which you can also add ties, but the problem with that is that you need to have read all 128 comics in order to make a meaningfull vote.
I guess then you could just do the above, but make a vote not require all 128 comics to be ranked: only the ones you have read. Of course, that makes it somewhat anticlimatic (well, maybe that’s not the best word) having the contest only go for one round.
Yeah, I’m rambling on again about things peopel don’t care about, aren’t I? Yeah, I am.
Wait, there’d “only” be 8,128 (128 choose 2) options, not 16,256. My point still stands, though
You and I appear to have some qualities in common. :)
Actually, I just had another idea that could work quite well. Basically, take my last idea, but remove some information from it. Instead of giving an ordering, the voters could place the comics into, say, 5 tiers (plus a default “did not read / no oppinion” tier), and vote that way.
This has 2 effects:
1) It does not immediately determine a winner. You could eliminate the half of the comics with the lowest scores, then go again, making the contest a little more exciting
2) It makes the vote easier for the voter since it should be much easier than deciding on a total ordering of all your favourite comics.
Exactly right. We might try a double-elimination tournament, though– we may do it for the NSFW bracket, as there's a smaller number of strips to deal with.
There are lots of webcomics lists that go just based on voting numbers already. We wanted to do something different– and based on the amount of outgoing traffic we've seen to other comics, it seems to work well.
Honestly, I don’t really like fandoms butting heads all that much. I can agree that it is different but the air I think has been rather toxic with everyone trying to reason their personal opinion’s with the general population’s opinions. It is not that I haven’t been doing the same but I kinda want to see more of the fact of the fandom supporting their comics and less of the arguing. Maybe have stuff like (Insert Comic Here) Day posts and let the fans explain why their comics are great or something like that.
you seem to be assuming that the point is to find the best webcomic around in a fair manner, whereas i believe the real point is to advertise a bunch of webcomics. the fairest way to do a tournament, in my humble magic-playing opinion, is swiss pairings. but the way to best advertise these webcomics through a tournament-like structure is to make it similar to the basketball tournaments from which the flavor of the idea is drawn, thus making it a recognizable and understandable format for the maximum number of readers.
MSPA fans for Gunnerkrigg Court!
I went with GKC, although my vote tomorrow (if I can) will probably go to Goblins. I discovered both from this tourney, and I’m glad to see this finale.
Okay, I looked up this Goblins comic to see what the fuss was all about, and even looking past the lumpy, deformed-looking characters, one of the first things I saw was the phrase “If you expound to me your personal nomenclature…”
A grown man wrote this sentence, looked at it, and was satisfied with what he considered good dialogue. There are people, thousands of people, who read dialogue just like it and continually defend it as good writing.
That character’s INT is so high that she forgets how to talk simply when she is flustered.
…your point kind of still stands though.
Yeah, NO ONE TALKS LIKE THAT. Not even socially awkward nerds. And believe me, I know socially awkward nerds.
Count Specula, that line of dialogue (and others by the same character) are suppost to be jarringly bad. In times of stress, she suffers from “increasingly redundant vocabulary”. In fact, there’s another character that interrupts her at one point and says “No one talk like that!”. Exactly as you have just done. I certainly did not look at that line of dialogue and think that it was good writing on its own. However, now that I see that a newcomer to my comic has looked at the dialogue and thought exactly what I mean for others to think, I’m quite pleased with myself. Thanks. :)
It’s just part of her character, the author’s fully capable of good grammar and the like.
It’s a quirk for that specific character when she’s in stressful situations. She talks normal most of the time, however when stressed her sentences tend to get convoluted and overly complex.
It’s still really bad writing, though. I know socially awkward people IRL who use big words at inappropriate times, and it sounds nothing like that. That sentence sounds like something a dopey or pretentious character would say in-comic when they’re trying too hard to sound smart, or when a hacky sitcom writer tries to write a “smart” character.
Think of it this way. Have you ever had a time where you’re flustered and panicked and don’t know what to say you kind of ramble on saying words close to what you mean and you sort of get a point across, but it barely makes sense and the person you’re talking to has to take a moment to process it? Yuan-ti are naturally incredibly intelligent (sorry to start going d&d on you, but a half yuan-ti has a intelligence score of +8, meaning an average yuan-ti is on the same level as a human genius.) Part of the way that her intelligence is represented is by giving her a much larger vocabulary, so during these stressful situations she gets into that same babbling dialog that any other character would get into, however she’s drawing from a much larger range of words. Thus, that is how normally silly sounding sentences like the one above are created.
It’s like how you wouldn’t read Harry Potter and pick out the line “wannagoballwithme?” as a representation of the entire books writing style. The character is clearly having a hard time forming a coherent sentences.
…….the point of the writing style isn’t to show that she’s smart, or socially awkward – it’s to show that when she’s in a highly stressful situation, she uses, as Ash put it, convoluted and overly complex sentences.
As in, more complex then they needed to be, or would normally be in general conversation.
Whether or not you’ve ever heard it within real life is irrelevant – what matters is that this is how the character in question reacts to certain situations.
Kin is not a socially awkward character… read the comic before you judge.
Actually that’s one of the latest pages: he/she began from the end.
Count Specula, again, you’re thinking exactly what readers are supposed to think when reading her dialogue. The exception being that you believe that I think it to be good writing by its own merit. Another quote from my comic, about the character in question…
“You don’t sound smart when you talk like that! You sound like an idiot!”
Goblin is not “writing” comic. Goblin is “action” comic. If it was judged by writing and characterization, it would not have made it past OOTS. It has improved quite a bit since it started, but it is still weak in that regard.
That is not what its fans are looking for, and while I personally consider strong writing and characterization to be far more important than action, that is not what Goblin uses for its appeal.
so, what you’re saying is that in order to judge whether or not you liked a piece of fiction, you chose to start somewhere in the middle rather than the beginning?
NO ONE READS LIKE THAT!
LOL, that’s Kin, she sometimes speaks that way but that’s because she’s a traumatized yuan-ti (I think), it’s part of her personality and the fact that yuan-tis can’t love, at least not like humans do.
Jeez you all sound like a bunch of Kin’s kinspeople :P You could have just linked this – http://www.goblinscomic.com/02212009/.
Count Specula, meet Kin. Kin, meet Count Specula. The rest is up to you two :)
Come on Gunners, let’s try to get up to 12,000 votes for Tom.
Goblins is the best comic I’ve ever read, I’ve read others too, but none of them were like Goblins, and because this I’ll vote on it. And for those who criticized Goblins: If you really want to meet this story, read it from the start, because if you start from the middle or the finish you’ll not understand anything. Seriously, this comic is really worth reading, try it if you want to appreciate a good comic.
So in this round MSPA fans vote against Goblins. What GKC got to do with anything here anyway?
Here is an idea for next tournament – include two three trivia questions about both participants of the bracket, so to vote one would have to actually know what they vote for/against.
If you look at the MSPA forums, among other places, 95% of those MSPA fans are voting for Gunnerkrigg Court because they genuinely love the comic. It’s only a small minority voting because they dislike Goblins for whatever reason.
“So in this round MSPA fans vote against Goblins. What GKC got to do with anything here anyway?”
You’re right that it’s not fair and it does give Gunnerkrigg a huge advantage. But if we were going to be totally fair, we’d have to say that OotS lost to Goblins purely because OotS wasn’t even trying. If OotS blogged/tweeted as much as I did, I’m positive he’d have won. There are a number of reasons why Goblins really should have been knocked out awhile ago. So it’d be hypocritical to start claiming unfairness NOW. I’m just lovin’ the fact that this tournament has got all sorts of people talking about webcomics that they wouldn’t normally have found.
If OoTS didn’t try enough, that is not your fault. Using Author’s authority (sorry for that), on the other hand, to push votes for someone’s else comic and against someone else’s work is just unethical, I think.
GKC made it to the final 4 because it is excellent. GKC beat out MSPA because it is excellent. What makes you think that the same people who voted up GKC AGAINST MSPA aren’t numerous enough to vote it up now? If we’re just comprised of MSPA fans, how the heck did we beat MSPA in the first place?
Implying that GKC is only winning because MSPA fans are voting for it is just plain insulting to Tom Siddell, who has created an amazing story and comic.
Also, before I get jumped on, I didn’t intend to imply that the MSPA and Goblins are not also excellent comics. :)
I think the comment has more to do with the fact that, while many mspa fans love both comics, there is some buzz about the fact that Hussie pimped GC on his tumblr, and diverted a portion of the fanbase into voting for it simply because they felt that Hussie wanted them to (because MSPA fans would jump off a bridge if Hussie shrugged his shoulders and hinted that it he might think it was cool).
However you are right, GunnerKC is excellent, and has very much earned it’s place among the best webcomics out there, just as Goblins has. I fear that many people in this round will be mindlessly voting for reasons other than just the comics merit.
Yesh, it is insulting but there were multiple factors that included Andrew letting MSPA fans know about GC, there were plenty of MSPA fans that voted for GC (and at some point it seemed like sound like a cause to help Tom), and I have no doubt that there were other reasons as well.
Calling GC winning just because it is excellent, although I wish it was true, disregards the fact that other people that did have other reasons. And it is not like MSPA didn’t have their reasons as well.
C’mon, Thunt, there’s a reason why Goblins is always #1 in TWC. Sure: there are other great comics (incl. OOTS and Gunnerkrig Court) who also deserve to win but Goblins is for sure one of them and you know it. Not just for the comic, which is more than enough reason, but also for having such a friendly and nice author like you.
Yes, there’s a reason why Goblins is always #1 in TWC: Goblins is the only comic with any audience whatsoever that’s still trying. No one else cares except people just starting out and trying to build an audience.
One can’t really object to MSPA’s author choosing to throw his contest, but you’re right that that shouldn’t carry over to where it affects a third party. People should be voting their conscience this round. Not that it really matters who wins – the $50 difference is a fraction of the benefit of this tournament to the entrants.
GKC is simply excellent – I don’t think many people would vote for it dishonestly. It’s also different enough from Goblins that the contest is at once meaningless and interesting. I do think GKC more original, perhaps partly in that D&D homagery is necessarily constraining, and I hope it wins because I haven’t been struck by that kind of originality in a while (even if I at first thought it Potter-ish – it’s not). But mostly I hope people stay civil and remember that whether or not they grab your fancy, people work hard on comics:
I’d read both Goblins and Gunnerkrigg before this, and was originally going to abstain because they’re both great comics and deserve the win, but after reading all the posts where Gunnerkrigg fans trashed goblins and insulted the author (who seems like a perfectly nice guy from what I can tell), I had to vote goblins out of principal.
Gunnerkrigg will likely win regardless, and honestly, I hope the two authors talk since they seem like they’d get along, but seriously, the portion of the fandom for Gunnerkrigg that’s trashing Goblins needs to grow up and maybe actually practice some of the morals its characters and stories hold.
There are some very legitimate criticisms of Thunt – such as that he’s the author of a webcomic in which almost nothing meaningful has happened in 5 years, that he can’t stick to his own update schedule, and that he abuses his readers for massive financial game. If your blinders are on high enough to not realize that he’s an incredibly lazy person who is every kind of fortunate that he has readers that support him, I dunno what to tell you.
Goblins is one of the worst-drawn of all ‘major’ webcomics, to boot – even as someone who used to like the story, it just got too ugly to want to look at constantly.
Abuses for massive financial… what? I’ve been reading for years and haven’t spent a cent, he’s not abusing anyone :P
Why’s he ‘lazy’ not busy?
Also, the art style’s fine imo. What’s the objective standard we’re judging it by here?
I ASSUME what he’s refering to as a “financial game” is the kickstarter campaign, which was Order of the Stick, not Goblins.
Let’s start here: http://www.goblinscomic.com/tempts-fate-11/
He got $46,000 dollars for his housing situation, starting in July 2011. The last page of that 4-piece comic, which was part of his ‘fundraising drive’, was supposed to be up by September 2011. It’s currently April 2012, and the last update to that page was October 2011, apologizing for the fact that the comic was already 2 months late.
There’s ‘busy’, and then there’s ‘can’t make 3 pages of a comic that people paid $11,750 a page for’. The fact that the latter’s as it is is sad.
The art style is harder to argue, since there’s no accounting for taste, but to many people (myself included), the lumpiness and over-detail are a huge detractor.
Just curious Niton, exactly how much did YOU donate?
What’s that you say?
You’ve never donated so much as a penny because you’re upset about a FREE webcomic’s update schedule?
Okay… so why are you so upset that other people freely chose to give money to the artist?
As someone who DID freely donate a substantial sum (…or at least what would be considered “substantial for an unpaid intern… >_>) I am offended by your sense of entitlement. No one owes you anything, he’s providing a free comic and you don’t have to read it. Grow up.
Maybe I’m wrong here and you did donate to the donation drive in question, in which case I sincerely apologize for the sarcasm, but… every single person I have talked to who has complained about Thunt abusing and ripping off his fans with the donation drive (of which there have been many) has either repeatedly ignored my first question, or admitted that they hadn’t donated. I have yet to hear a single person who actually donated come out and say that they are anywhere near as angry that tempts fate has taken so long as you seem to be.
As far as Thunt’s “laziness” is concerned, I suggest you come spend a couple of days in the chat while he is broadcasting, and you’ll see just how much work it entails. I will admit that Goblins doesn’t have the best art of any webcomic, but it is very good and is improving constantly. Thunt is constantly pushing himself to create a better product, often creating more work for himself (on top of the extra work from keeping track of and drawing all of the battle wounds). Sure he /could/ rush out a sloppier product just to move the story along or just to get a page out, but he doesn’t because he refuses to settle for anything short of the best he can manage. I can respect that, and would hope others would too.
On a sidenote, people who donated in the last tempts fate got original art from the comic or special charactersheets. Many of the donators took the chance to “buy” art from Thunt, since they could chose which panel, strip, page they wanted.
Thunt has not “abused” anyone, or anything. “Abuse: to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way:” No one forced anyone to donate, it’s a sign of people’s respect that they wanted to help him.
As for nothing meaningful happening in years, I assume you’re taking into account that for the first several years he updated every few MONTHS? You expect meaningful happenings with four updates a year? The new schedule has not been in effect for the majority of that time.
As for his update schedule, so what? He doesn’t have a salary, it doesn’t cost any of us anything if he misses an update. A large portion of the comics that were in his tournament aren’t even brave enough to HAVE a schedule. They post without rhyme or reason.
As for Goblins art style, it’s a different style. Would I have followed it if it had stayed how it STARTED? Not as much, but I really enjoy the artwork and the characters.
I’m sorry that you rather have cowards who are too scared to have a schedule, or do sudden upsets for drama instead of writing the comic they set out to write.
Going back to the “meaningful” comment, I am sorry that character development isn’t meaningful to you.
Wait, getting $46,766 for a house and then not actually delivering on the 4 pages you’d offer isn’t an offensive way to treat donators? Thunt’s made a hell of a lot of money off of Tempts Fate, and he still can’t bother to actually make deadlines when people are [b]paying him to[/b].
Ugh.. wrong tag style. The point is, do you know how many artists would kill to have $45,000 just given to them? To take that kind of windfall and then not follow up for the people who gave it to you is absurd.
Niton… Firstly, Tempts has no deadlines for the pages being drawn. I’m not sure where you’re getting your deadlines from. Secondly, I drew the promised four pages ages ago. Why then, is Tempts Fate not done yet? Because I want to put in more effort than promised and draw extra pages. I could have easily done four simple pages and walked away, but I’m doing extra work as an extra thank you. It’s taking a long time and I’m pretty embarressed about that, but I’ve already drawn the amount of pages promised. If you want to talk about how Goblins sucks, you can do that all you want. I have no problem with that. But if you’re going to claim that I’m ripping people off, you need to make sure your facts are in order first.
Also, I draw seven days a week, 8-18 hours per day (when I’m not moving into a new home). If you think I’m exaggerating, come and watch the live feed. I have it on most of the time.
You’re right in saying that there are a lot of legitimate criticisms about me though. Just… not a lot of them are coming from you.
*Crap. I forgot to mention that the “seven days a week” comment was in response to you calling me lazy.
You consider the 45,000 as a one time payment. In fact, this is a “Thank You” for SEVEN YEARS of hard and free work. Do the math again. About the 4 pages – it is just a progress bar of donation meter, of a fancy variety. It was never to be connected in any way to main comic and will never take precedence over scheduled updates.
I am sorry I speak in Tarol’s name. I think I should stop…
DONATING is not paying. It’s completely optional. Also, you didn’t say OFFENSIVE. You said ABUSIVE. Don’t try to change tacts mid conversation. And you keep trying to jam the PEOPLE PAID FOR THIS down people’s throats.
Donations are a donation, not a payment. Not a requirement, not compensation. It’s done because you respect, care, etc, for the thing you are donating to. Tons of people would have STILL donated if Thunt if nothing came out of it.
You have your own opinions, good for you, stop trying to force feed your hatred into a place that is not interested in it.
Tempts Fate is the donation drive for THunt’s comic. He uses it as a way to get his readers involved in something with the comic. The more $ donated means the more epic TF would be against his opponents or the easier he would make it through his objectives.
Tempts Fate 11 was done when THunt was losing his house and he specifically DID NOT WANT TO TAKE THE MONEY FROM HIS FANS since that would be akin to using them. His fans CONVINCED him to do it anyway and he raised over $30k in like 3 days. That was (and is) love from his fans. And yes, I did donate what I could. THunt shares his life with his fans. Watch the Ustream, follow his Tweets, read the forum, or read his blog. He is incredibly nice and treats everyone like family. He’s not abusive with his fans, or offensive. And those that think so in the beginning usually change their minds. Did it take him a while to finish TF11? Yes, but so what? Those that read the comic regularly know the effort he puts in. It’s hard to make this your full time job and he is juggling life along with the comic.
How’s the phrase go… Judge a book not by it’s cover, but by the wealth of information inside.
OK, I’ll take it slowly and try to be polite.
1) “Nothing meaningful in 5 years” is called “character development”
2) Update schedule is pretty stable other than little things like MOVING TO A NEW HOUSE
3) “Financial game”?! it is a donation drive. everyone has a donation button. This just has bonus material. No one is FORCED to donate.
4) “Lazy person” that is drawing/inking/colouring/shading/etc 7 days a week for 8~16 hours a day, on expense of fiance and children. Seriously.
5) I agree, we are close community. And I think it’s because of our anchor, not the other way around.
6) You seriously telling me that actual ART of Goblins is worse than OoTS or MSPA? did you just look on the second page? Check any of the pages from 5 years ago onward. They are at least on par with GKC and much better than other two semifinalists.
Sorry, is any part seemed rude, I just found your post bit offending.
I want to follow up on Alvarin’s point regarding “Nothing meaningful happening”.
1) Several major character’s dying (both heroes and villains).
2) Characters evolving from generic monsters to heroes.
3) Character goes catatonic after being ‘abandoned’ and makes a recovery when another MAJOR character is dying.
And that’s only following the goblin characters not the other ‘heroic’ party.
How is that for nothing going on?
Disclosure: I have been only reading Goblins for about 2 months while reading GKC for about 2 years.
I’m sorry, but calling the whole GKC fandom out for a few trash-talky folks is not cool. Most of us are happy to read and support Tom quietly with our votes. The trolliest people are the loudest, as with any fandom. Don’t let their nastiness colour your opinion of GKC fans.
From what I’ve seen, GKC fans seem pretty awesome.
By the way… here’s a question for the GKC experts. By your best guess, how long should it take me to read through all of the GKC archives? I want to dive into this thing, because the bits and pieces that I’ve seen look awesome.
Less than a day for sure. If you’re a quick reader, a few hours to half a day.
let’s say between one and three days, depends on how fast a reader you are, and how much time you have on your hands.
Hmm, for me, I think it took three nights, but I don’t remember how much of those nights I was dedicating to reading it.
As a reader of both Goblins and GKC i’d be super interested to hear what you think about Gunnerkrigg, once you dig in!
Conversely, how long would it take me to get through Goblins?
I’d say about two-three days of several hours a day.
I specifically said portion of the fandom :P
GOG yes, and this goes for all of the fandoms…
As fun as this tournament has been to some, it has only have been a mess to the fans. I am actually willing to read Goblins, GC, and OOTS a chance and honestly for the little I read from both the stories and fans, they all have their greatness and faults…they are all in different worlds to a point that these comics shouldn’t be butting heads.
I was looking for fun…all it did was just mess up fandoms that probably would have gotten along very well in a different settings. :/
Yay, final round! Go Goblins! You can do it!
I’ve read a decent chunk of both of these comics during the tournament up to this point, and GC seems fine, and I’m sure I will probably end up liking it more than I currently do, if I decide to catch up on the full archive, but what I’ve read of Goblins tickles my funny-bone and captures my interest much more successfully than GC does. But opinions differ, of course; perhaps I’m just a better fit into the demographics of the target audience. Good luck Thunt!
This is actually a hard decision. I’ve read Gunnerkrigg Court for longer, and Homestuck is telling me to, but Goblins a lot of likable characters, admittedly with less characterization than GKC’s main characters. As comics alone, they are pretty close, and I don’t want to bring fandom into this. But then I think about the updates. Tom is always on time with his updates, which are complete. Tarol, as of recent months misses some updates and continually arts up pages after they’re up, sometimes not finishing the pages. Sadly to say, Goblins, but at least in the regard of updating, GKC wins.
Late updates are an unfortunate product of Tarol’s drawing process. From what I’ve seen, he is unwilling to compromise the base quality in order to rush an update. Judging from GC’s art style, each comic probably takes less time overall due to the level of detail. The art style just seems to be a bit more simplified. Note, this is not a criticism of GC’s art style, which I actually enjoy and is closer to how I tend to draw. Granted I haven’t gotten through the entire comic yet, and flipping through I have noticed some sections with far more detail, but in general it seems as though Tom uses less laborious detailing and various texture tools in photoshop.
Admittedly Thunt /may/ create more work for himself than he needs to, especially since he got his tablet as he has kept many of the same methods as when he drew the comic by hand and added extra steps on top of them. His current drawing process after very rough drafts involves:
1) draw panels (quick)
2) pre-“pencil” comic (This is a rougher precursor to the penciling stage, normally done in blue)
3) pencil comic (firming up the rough sketches)
4) ink comic (draw the final lines over the rougher pencil drawing)
5) color comic
6) detailing (adding all of the reflections, shining elements, glow, shadows, shading, etc…
Thunt has only been using the tablet for a year, so personally I’m hoping that he’ll improve with texturing tools and be able to get rid of some redundant steps. Even though I would love to see more updates or faster updates, I think the update schedule should be put in context of Thunt’s current situation (moving) and the relative amount of work that goes into the comic.
Regardless of who wins I think either is worthy of the prize.
Epic final match. I could not decide (I follow both comics eagerly) so I checked the results and then voted for the underdog, which, rather unexpectedly was Goblins. I thought of abstaining but I really want both to win, a tie would be ideal.
For people debating between Goblins and Gunnerkrig, I can tell you why I am voting for Gunnerkrig.
Goblins is a comic about lumpy turd-people filled with raspberry jam, where the author thinks its alright to go on pages-long tangents about game mechanics and stupid pointless ‘backstory’ because its supposedly a D&D comic. It has sudden, shocking gore, and paper-cutout characters. The author/artist has some kind of bizarre fascination with slow-zoom-and-pan style shots which don’t work aesthetically.
Gunnerkrig has some actual heart and soul. I am just through the first couple of chapters, and it’s just goddamn 100% better than Goblins.
Thunt is a whiny donation-baby. He didn’t even finish the latest Tempts Fate comic, from what I have seen. The comic that apparently BOUGHT HIM A HOUSE.
first off, the Tempts Fate/house money donation conversation is already in progress. go find it above.
second, an essential action which any fiction reader/viewer must take is one of acceptance that the creator of the fiction being presented has absolute, 100% control over the universe in which that fiction takes place. if he makes a choice that all of his characters will look lumpy, then they will all look lumpy. a serious reader of fiction accepts that things in the fictional universe look however the artist wants them to look, and should not take that choice into account when comparing the work to one with a completely different artist.
third, you say that you’re going to tell us why you’re voting for Gunnerkrig, but it seems to me that you are instead telling us why you’re voting against Goblins. see the difference? ‘x has heart and soul’ is not a valid statement. in order to make your argument more clear, you need to tell us exactly what heart and soul are, and list examples of how GKC has them and Goblins does not.
This is a popularity contest. Personal preference matters implicitly when we are making our votes here. If I prefer Gkrig’s art over Goblins’, then that is my preference. It doesn’t matter if Thunt sat down at his desk and said “I decree all goblins to be lumpy.” Talking about “serious readers of fiction” is also not a valid statement when debating what comic I should vote for.
I doubt the majority of people voting in this poll are reading these. I’m mostly venting about Goblins anyway. Thunt does a lot of things in his comic that irk me. His gore porn is one of them.
“if he makes a choice that all of his characters will look lumpy, then they will all look lumpy. a serious reader of fiction accepts that things in the fictional universe look however the artist wants them to look, and should not take that choice into account when comparing the work to one with a completely different artist.”
A serious reader of fiction doesn’t need to accept anything of the sort. If a reader finds the aesthetic off-putting or downright gross, they are free to reject it. Art is about the dialog between the artist and his or her audience, and if the audience finds some visual aspect of a comic repellant, that is their right.
Don’t go around pretending you have to be some enlightened savant to appreciate when characters look shapeless and disconcerting like, so many of Goblins’ Goblins do. Fiction doesn’t excuse aesthetics.
i just don’t see ‘i think it’s ugly’ as a relevant critique of the comic as a whole. to say that something is drawn poorly is to imply that other artists have drawn it correctly, and even though the concept of goblins is not exactly new to the fantasy community, these particular goblins in this particular fictional world should be drawn in whatever way the artist wants to draw them. since nobody but Thunt had ever drawn these characters before him, he should be allowed complete artistic freedom to draw them however he wants, be that lumpy or just like in the d&d monster manual, and he should not be criticized for exercising that artistic freedom.
No one has said that Thunt should stop drawing the goblins the way he does. Or at least no one in this comment thread has said as much. Implying that we have is twisting our words (even if you’re doing it unknowingly).
And I’ll darn well criticize his artistic choices. As a reader it’s my right to respond to art, and if my response is negative then so be it. No, it very likely won’t make Thunt change his aesthetic, but you know what? I’m not saying he has to. I’m saying I think the goblins are lumpy and sort of look like molded poop.
Maybe that’s intentional? I don’t know but I can’t say it makes it easy for me to relate to the characters on an emotional level. Comics are a hybrid medium; a good comic has excellent visuals as well as an interesting narrative.
I feel that Goblins fails at both. The pacing is all over the place, I don’t related to any of the characters, and I resent having to read pages and pages of uninteresting words. If a comic-maker has to resort to giant blocks of text to get a meaning across, they are not using the visual half of the medium to its fullest extent. I also find the tone clashes quite a bit. I can’t help but laugh when something is injured and bursts like an overfilled jelly doughnut, but at the same time I know I’m supposed to take it seriously and that pulls me out of the story.
Again, I can’t stop the guy from drawing the comic, and as long as he’s enjoying himself I congratulate him on his success. But artistic license is not a free pass on any sort of criticism. Implying that fantasy work is above criticism because it’s fictional is hilariously silly. No aspect of art is above criticism. Analyzing aesthetic choice is a very basic and widely-accepted part of art criticism.
Precisely, it is an artist’s right to make his comic look horrifically unattractive and drive people away. If someone can’t appreciate that then the problem is clearly with them.
THIS. So much THIS.
I’m voting for Gunnerkrieg Court because it’s got awesome characterization, great story, amazing setting and the art improves by leaps and bounds. If you haven’t read it yet, read it now and appreciate the lack of snakewoman rape.
You know lack of snakewoman rape is a definite plus to me. In all honesty this was a an easy decision, I’ve been a fan of Gunnerkrigg Court ever since I gave it a shot based on Neil Gaiman’s recommendation from his blog.
How could I have forgotten about snakewoman rape?
Seriously, that was some of the most hamfisted Evil Speeches I have ever read, not to mention reading like nothing anyone would ever say.
Geez, you guys are harsh. I’d be a hypocrite if I said anything against it though. I’ve said “that movie sucks” or “that book sucks” and gone on about it. I forget what it feels like to be on the other end of those rants sometimes. Part of the job, I guess. :)
your comic is brilliant, keep ’em coming.
Mr. Hunt, I have to admit that I’ve never read your comic and D&D based things are not usually something that fall into my general range of interests, but you, sir, are a gentlemen and a good sport, and for that I am more than willing to give it a go. I can see why you have such a rabidly supportive fanbase.
Mr. Hunt, I haven’t taken the time to sit down and read your comic, but just skimming through some pages, I can tell that it’s pretty great.
However, if you don’t mind a criticism…
Your artwork is actually pretty good (the character design of the monsters is phenomenal, and you do know how to make perspective work), but what is really detracting from the quality of the final product is the flat coloring and the scarce shading.
The colors themselves aren’t bad (although some more contrast between the palettes you choose for the characters and the backgrounds would help), but the way they are now they make everything look flat. With some more shading your art would really pop out and your linework would shine as it deserves.
I remember, about a year ago, randomly coming across one page of your comic where you compared the work-in-progress (of a monster, I think) with the final result, which had fairly detailed shading, if my memory serves me well, and I thought to myself, “I want to draw that awesomely some day!”. I didn’t check out the rest of the comic at the time, just added it to my bookmarks with a vague reminder to do it later, but now that I checked it out, I was surprised to see most pages that didn’t have the same visual impact of that page.
From the comments here it sounds like you have a busy schedule; and I don’t have the heart to tell you something like, “Yeah, well, go get a Time-Turner, or something, you need to do more work!!”, but if you could find an assistant (or, what the hell, an actual Time Turner :P) to help there I think it would make the quality of your comic shoot up considerably. (And like I said, it is already pretty good! I will have to sit down and read it all later.)
I hope all of the above didn’t come across as terribly arrogant. It was just an observation that I thought worth making, although, now that I think about it, you’ve probably had this “suggestion” made repeatedly in the past. Oh, um, in that case, sorry!
But, um, yes, good luck with the contest, and keep on rocking the webcomic scene!
Hey, I’ve got good news for you, Mia!
Thunt has begun shading Goblins about a year ago and is improving his technique with every update. I guess you haven’t read the comic pages that went up within the last 12 months yet. At first, many fans protested because they thought it would mess up his schedule, but I think readers like you will be happy about it. No, Mia, your kind of feedback is great, because you dont spit out a few hateful words without viable arguments, but explain whyt you have to say. I hope you continue to enjoy reading Goblins as much as I do. Cheers!
I kind of got lost navigating the archive (I still don’t understand how that happened), but I finally saw the most recent pages, and wow, you’re right! He did exactly what I was talking about. The comic has improved a lot!
Goblins ftw. I actually really enjoy the characters within and I’m a big D&D dork so the settings and characters are very “familiar”.
Love Gunnerkrig too, after being introduced to it via this contest … but Goblins is more catchy.
I hope it’ll be a closer match, to be honest :)
Wow, lots of highly emotional comments around here…
I hope people realize this is a popularity contest, not anything else.
Whether you’ll find the comics listed here enjoyable is entirely dependent on your personal opinions, and preferences. It is not dependent on the number of votes comics get.
That is to say, even if the comics you like better doesn’t win, that doesn’t make it any less awesome. Even if you think that its better than the other one – its still true. (for you and also apparently thousands more).
I skimmed both comics, the difference that “irks” me the most is that I can’t fap to them krigggerz. I Like my lumps, my lumps, my lovely lady lumps.
I know this is a popularity contest, but hopefully people keep in mind the sheer imagination and artistry involved in Gunnerkrigg Court. Well, okay, it’s rough at the beginning, but that was like, seven years ago, and Tom Siddell’s art style evolved and improved by leaps and bounds.
Okay, since we can’t seem to be nice about Gunnerkrigg without being mean about Goblins…ha ha.
Reasons why you should consider giving the GKC archives a read, even if you don’t end up voting for it:
1) The story, as an overarching whole, is simply amazing so far. It progresses in small chunks, yes, but Tom is an amazing storyteller. It seems like he has a very good handle on his plot and characters, and the man knows when to hold details back to keep you interested. The story grows in both scope and quality as the characters age and discover more about both themselves and the world around them.
2) The artwork, while generally cartoonish and simplistic at times, is amazingly expressive and fitting of the story. Tom makes excellent use of this style, and while with bonus pages and prints he proves himself capable of beautiful artwork, the actual style of the pages is much more complementary to the tone of the story itself than a hyper-detailed version would be.
3) Gunnerkrigg, while dealing with some very serious and mature themes, is a true “all ages” kind of story without sacrificing its appeal to the adult audience. It is not ‘childish’ but is suitable for children. A few years ago, one of the forum members was using it as an educational tool in his English-as-a-second-language classroom overseas, which is pretty neat.
4) The variety of legends/folktales/cultural otherworldlies (I’m sorry, my vocabulary seems to have deserted me) adds a very interesting dynamic to the story. The focus on the Native American figure of Coyote in particular is incredibly interesting to see in such a predominantly British-inspired setting.
5) Characterization. Oh my god, Characterization. Some of them take some time to grow on you, but wow. The sheer imagination behind some of the characters (ie. Zimmy) is phenomenal.
6) Tongue in cheek silliness. Somewhere above, someone commented on the ridiculousness of the comic. Part of its charm is the cleverness involved in some of the gags – they’re amusing without being overly slapstick. A lot of the humour is subtle.
7) The world of Gunnerkrigg Court is amazing and odd and full of surprises, but Tom does a very good job of presenting it all as simply “the way things are” without being glib about it. The main character Annie is enough of an outsider that we, the readers, get some of the explanations we need, but there’s none of the tiresome “Oh my god, everything is different and weird and I’m freaking out about it!” that so often happens in fantasy-world settings.
While the above is certainly not a comprehensive list, I hope it will convince some of you to read beyond the first few chapters. :)
Best of luck to both comics in the finale.
Another item on this list (not concerning the content but rather the web-aspect of the comic) could be the unshakable update-scedule. Tom has never missed an update since the comic started, all thanks to his buffer.
This way all Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays are Gunnerkrigg-Court-Days. :)
“Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays are Gunnerkrigg-Court-Days. :)”
I know! I so look forward to MWF. Weekends are a bit sad because there is no GKC. :(
Yes! Gunnerkrigg Court, the comic that makes you look forward to Mondays! :D
MSPA has it’s own schedule that can be summed up like this:
Then again… we do this for multiple reasons. ;p
8) Once you’ve read through the archive once, don’t stop there. Read through it again sometime and you’ll notice a bunch of things you didn’t notice before because of the information you have now. Check out the “Cool things I only noticed on reread” thread on the Gunnerkrigg forums for tons of examples.
Yes, that is an excellent point! Another comment above mentions the lack of re-readability of GKC but I really must disagree. I have re-read the archives in their entirety a few times, and certain favourite chapters a few times a year. I always notice new things, from small details to facial expressions, to major “OMG this foreshadows that cool thing that happens 10 chapters down the road!” moments.
Thank you for this. If the real benefit of this contest is good comics getting more exposure, this post could do even more than GKC winning.
I must say, GC is a fantastic comic, and I’m glad to see it make it this far. However, when paired up against GC, it just doesn’t stand a chance. I certainly enjoy GC, but GC just blows GC out of the water. I have voted for both GC and GC up until now, but in a contest between GC and GC, GC clearly takes the cake. Go GC!
Couldn’t have said it better
First – this is amazing.
Second – I read this in Max’s voice from Sam and Max. Thank you.
This is the best comment. THE. BEST.
This coment deserves ALL the votes!
ALL OF THEM.
Am I the only one here who is annoyed by all the generalizing comments on here? “GC is CLEARLY the better comic, the art for Globlins just sucks!” “Goblins is much better, GC is just Harry Potter!” (not quoting anyone specifically)
If both comics have made it this far then they clearly have something going for them. It saddens me that some people cant cheer for their favorite without bitching about the opponent.
I for one found both comics through this contest. I find them both to be very engaging and have put them on my “to follow” list. Choosing which to vote for is downright painful.
Anyway, that is my two cents. Make what you will of it but I’m really just tired of all the hate. (remind me again why I hang out on the internet?)
Yes, thank you! Reading some of these rants is downright painful…
(also, yes, the internet e_e)
Oh wow, since when did this contest get so negative?
I thought the whole point of this was highlight webcomics, and help people see new comics to read (like I did), but now it’s just all depressing!
Nearly all of the comments I just read were about slanging off the other comic – and by ‘Other Comic’ I mean Goblins, since NO ONE here is slanging off GKC.
Seriously, what is with you guys to inspire such levels of hate?
“Goblins is a comic about lumpy turd-people filled with raspberry jam, where the author thinks its alright to go on pages-long tangents about game mechanics and stupid pointless ‘backstory’ – Are you kidding me? I don’t know what comic your reading, but you obviously haven’t actually READ goblins or you would know that this statement is nowhere near the truth.
Personally, I think it reflects quite well on the Goblins Fandom that GKC hasn’t been attacked incessently on IT”S artwork – which, BTW, is way worse than Goblins.
And yet, I don’t really care about GKC’s artwork, I think every webcomic has it’s own style, and I like each one for that.
So get a life you trolls, and learn to have a little more tolerance. Try reading something WITHOUT looking for little flaw, and try to take things in it’s context. Evil characters do EVIL things, alright? Thats what makes them EVIL!
Whew. Rant over,I hope you guys can make sense of that.
I’m not sure you’re helping our case Michael :P GC’s art isn’t any worse than or better than Goblins, it’s just different. Thunt tends to detail the hell out of everything in his line drawing stage. GC’s author on the other hand (from what I’ve seen) seems to use simpler art, with better use hatching and crosshatching, he also seems much more adept than Thunt at using some of the texture options in his photo editor. Where Thunt will manually draw the texture he wants in the line phase, and expands on it in the detailing part of the coloring stage… but he seems to have more trouble with actual textures because they just aren’t something he uses. Both are good in their own ways, although I’m more impressed by Thunt’s line art and generally consistent style of line drawing.
(and just after I got done telling someone how proud I was to be a part of a community that doesn’t generally resort to attacks on others.
And yet you felt the need to point out your opinion that GC’s art is worse than Goblins? Nice way to make your argument invalid.
Both comics are good for their target audience. If you like one, you vote for one. If you like both, you vote for the one you like more. If you can’t decide, then don’t vote. It’s that simple.
Whoops, this was meant to be a reply to Michael7050.
Even though GkC is a pretty good comic, I didn’t feel as attached to the characters as I did with goblins. I also don’t like the main character very much (the only character I really liked was Coyote and maybe the red eyed girl), while I have liked several main characters from goblins. I also think that Thunt has improved a lot over the years he has made from his comic.
Honestly, this contest has just made it worse for just the fans. Not even the authors don’t care as much as we do. And besides, this is done via polling which is more for fun.
They are all different and they all have their charms. They also target different people and what not.
Not even the authors care as much as we do.
Very true, you should have heard Thunt on the live feed earlier tonight. He said he’d be perfectly happy as long as goblins stayed at atleast 45% of the vote.
Aka, let’s all vote for our guts.
Are you people serious.
I like both comics, but I voted Goblins. I’m not going into why, since both are great comics, but this is all a matter of opinion. A matter opinion about COMICS ON THE INTERNET. Half of these comments are practically assaults on the comic rather than legitimate criticism, and are you REALLY attacking Thunt while clearly not doing your research for more than a few seconds or what a friend told you off hand? Seriously? Or calling GC “Harry Potter with girls” after only reading a couple pages?
Discussing opinions is fine, but holy crap, lighten up. You guys are all acting like schoolchildren.
After having read both of the comics for months now, I have to say they are both very good and deserve to get to the final. Goblins is more like an “in your face” type of comic, and Gunnerkrigg is more mysterious and it feels more deep. My vote is for Gunnerkrigg.
Ahhh, I love the smell of flame war in the morning. Smells like…you people need to give it a rest and just vote for the comic you like best. Plus, all webcomics have their up- and downsides. For me, it’s artwork in GKC (yes, I don’t like it) and the pace of updates and switching from a story to story, when it comes to Goblins.
Having read both comics for about two years each at this point, I can honestly say they both have high points.
On one hand, Goblins is a delightful romp into the whipping boys of most D&D campaigns, slathering itself with a sauce of comedy and drama, of adventure and triumph. Each page of Goblins is crafted out of the mind of a overreaching story that still fails to disappoint. It brings to mind every nostalgic experience that we’ve had as fantasy readers, game players, and various categorized “geeks”. (Please, not meaning to be insulting) Goblins, what it does for me, is gives me a look into another person’s world, their trials and experiences as a player, dungeon master, and artist of words and art. It lets me know I can connect to this person, understand him better then most because we share the same interests.
On the other, you have Gunnerkrigg Court, which is very much a comic of discovery and knowledge. While it has it’s humor, it’s far more subtle in many cases then Goblins, and certainly more believable of things that could actually happen. What grips one in GKC is not the story, not the art, not the humor, events, or lore, it’s the characters. each of the characters acts and is a believable being, with hopes, dreams, desires, flaws and virtues. We all can relate to a character from GKC, especially those of us who remember our teenage school years clearly, or are still suffering though them.
Neither comic here is better then the other, neither can claim that they are better then the other. This isn’t so much a glorified popularity contest at this point rather then what it truly is, a showing of hands of which comic touches us more, which one of the two do we connect with, understand, empathize with. For me, the choice is Gunnerkrigg for personal and varied reasons. But for others, many others, it will be Goblins. All I ask, as someone who has followed the ups and downs of both comics for awhile is that you read both and figure out which one resonates with you more.
I’m voting for Goblins.
Gunnerkrigg Court simply isn’t as physically appealing as Goblins. I had to read it periodically, or else I would seriously just fall asleep. Because of this, I read it in a month, without enjoying it even once, but I just wanted to know what’s so appealing about it. Also, Annie isn’t a very good main character. I think that she would do okay as an recurring character, like Kore from Goblins, but just not the main one.
Goblins, however, was just far more enjoyable, and I was able to read through it in about two days. I find it a very good concept, having multiple groups of main characters, which is why voting would be a lot harder for me if it was Goblins vs. MSPA.
If only it was possible for a poll about things people on the internet like to be civil.
I get that some comics just don’t do it for people. In my case, that’s Goblins. Tried. Couldn’t keep interested. Props for the improvement he’s made in art over the years, that takes some doing, but his story and characters from what I saw just aren’t my thing.
For others, it’s Gunnerkrigg. I’d disagree, but everyone has the right to their opinion, so long as they’re civil about it. I personally am much more invested in Gunnerkrigg’s story and characters, and it’s a lot of fun to click back to the start of the story and see how far things have come in terms of both art and character development.
I don’t get why people are saying Tom doesn’t care about his fans and that that’s a reason to not vote GKC. He does, he’s just a more private person, which shouldn’t affect how people perceive the quality of his comic. I’m not as familiar with Goblins, so I can’t speak for the things people are saying about Hunt. In both cases, ad hominem attacks have no place here, especially considering they tend to boil down to “Your opinion is different! You are a jerk!”
No idea who to vote for, GKC’s wonderful but I love Goblins enough to eagerly rush to help buy a house and all. I want to donate to GKC too but the little practical part of my brain is telling me to wait til after I actually get a paycheck. (And possibly to find out how much a coyote plushie is going to cost, because that is a something that needs to be bought if affordable, when it comes.) After that I can start being the serious small-donation patron of the arts that lurks in all of us.
And GKC is my boyfriend’s favorite webcomic of all time so there is that… my loyalties they are torn. Perhaps I should abstain this round.
hi i have opinions and i would like to tell you all why your opinions aren’t as good as my opinions
Instead of being guilted into voting for anything how about we all just vote for what we actually like
I would highly recommend that everyone read some Gunnerkrigg Court, if you haven’t, before voting – it’s not terribly long and an incredibly enjoyable read, and you’ve got all weekend to do it! Voting for one comic or the other because you’ve only read one isn’t terribly sporting, now is it?
i gave GKC a shot, read a whole chapter. it failed to grab my attention/interest, whereas Goblins had me in 2 strips. but that’s just my experience, and i agree that people should actually give each comic a shot before voting.
Same thing happened to me.
I WANT to like GKC, but I’m just not entertained by it at all. Whereas I religiously check Goblins every update day, because I love it and want to see the new page as soon as possible.
went to the Goblins comic page to check it out before voting, and the most recent page has a villain threatening to gang rape a female character after she dies. Pretty much tells me all I need to know. Say what you will about Gunnerkrigg Court, but at least it’s never used rape as a cheap device for laughs or to show how ~evil~ a character is.
Uhm… What? Where are you pulling any of this information from? The only female character in that most recent panel just released that ‘evil character’ from servitude, and the evil character just told it’s previous ‘owner’ that he’ll be waiting in hell. Ya know, cause he’s a DEVIL? And that’s where they come from? I mean I can understand taking things out of context or not getting it, but you didn’t even realize that your so called ‘female character that was threatened to be gang raped’ was a MALE character with almost a completely bare chest. How do you NOT notice that? I realize goblins isn’t for everybody, it’s a very Dungeons and Dragon influenced comic, and as such, a lot of the humor goes to waste, but this comment doesn’t say anything about the comic other than you completely failed at reading AND viewing.
umm, no. no, it does not. first off, any reader engaging in any fiction should start at the beginning, not the middle. i mean, if i were to go read the latest strip of GKC and nothing else, and make a judgment based on that, it would obviously be a misinformed judgment. second, the demon specifically states that he is talking to someone who is bald. the one female in that strip is not bald. third, nobody says a thing about rape in that strip.
it seems that you basically went to the page specifically looking for something bad to say about it, and allowed your negative perception to shape your interpretation of what you saw on the page. which you shouldn’t have even been trying to interpret in the first place, since you haven’t read the hundreds of pages before it.
Gang rape wasn’t mentioned anywhere in Goblins. Stop projecting onto fictional characters.
Laura_Ellyn, I have to congratulate you. In the almost eight years of drawing this comic, no one has ever even come close to misinterpreting anything in it this badly. “Gang rape”? Really? That’s what you got from that page? “Using rape as a cheap device for laughs”? That’s where your mind went? Have you ever heard of a Rorschach test? Cause what you’re seeing isn’t there and has come from your own mind.
What’s actually happening in that page, is the female character just freed the demon from magical slavery and now he can return home. The demon, as his final gesture, is threatening his male capture before going back to hell. What you described is… pretty gross, actually.
I’m fairly positive that for all rational people, gang rape never even entered their mind after reading that, Thunt.
You obviously failed to understand the page in question. Well at least it didn’t stop you from spreading the false information via twitter.
Of all the idiots in here spreading bullshit either about Goblins or about GKC, you’re the most infuriating. I can’t believe you. You must know by now that the page has nothing to do with rape at all, and that the demon is threatening a man in a yes, violent, but non-rape-related way, and you are still spreading what you KNOW to be lies on your twitter and tumblr. This is how much you hate Goblins, a comic you have never read except for one page that you wanted to dislike so much that you saw gangrape where there was nothing of the sort. Slowclap for you. You are the classiest.
Congratulations, Laura, now every Goblins fan knows exactly how much of an idiot you are. I couldn’t have said it better than Thunt: “Wow. Just wow.”
I gave GC a shot and read 15 chapters. It’s a good webcomic, but I think goblins is much better.
these comments saying judging the art is purely a matter of opinion are hilarious. like, theres stylization, and then theres just not drawing anatomy correctly consistently. the difference is that the former is a matter of choice, whereas hunt is incapable of drawing better. goblins’ art is objectively bad, the only thing that’s subjective is whether you mind.
How’s that trolling working out for you?
pretty good, means i dont have to read hundreds of pages of turd people adventures and dramatic death scenes with a -10 hanging above the persons head
That’s cool. Thankfully, the opinion of internet trolls is worth next to nothing to pretty much everyone. Keep it up, though. I wouldn’t want to take your hobby away from you.
yes, not reading a laughably bad webcomic and making a comment about it constitutes “trolling.” do you also yell troll when septic workers complain about the smell of shit
Well, yes; to most people, vicously criticising something you haven’t actually read does indeed count as ‘trolling’. It’s alright if you don’t get that though – I don’t think anyone was really expecting you to.
dont have to read the comic to judge the art. ive looked at the first few strips, writing didnt appeal to me, then clicked a few archive links to see if the art got any better like it did with gunnerkrigg, and checked out a couple of the latest pages. theres pretty much no improvement. theres color, but its very simplistic and often clashes. just look at the faces on the most recent page: eyes dont work that way. neither do mouths. maybe hunt is a writing genius, i dont know, but i dont care to read something with such consistently ugly and misshappen people.
……presumably, you’re a fan of GC, or have at least read it (if not, then why are you even here?). If so, then I’m guessing that you’re comparing the art of both comics in the process of forming your opinions.
In which case, I have a challenge for you – I want you to look at the most recent page of GC, and tell me that everything you see is perfectly realistic. That every mouth and eye on that page acts exactly as it would do in real life, and that there are absolutly no ‘comic’ elements visible.
Your arguments are flawed by your preconceptions – you want GC to win, so you are amplifying any preceived errors in Goblins, while simultaneously overlooking similar flaws in GC.
I have read both comics, and I can say without bias that I prefer the artwork of Goblins. And that is the nature of honest opinions – regardless of how terrible you may think the art is, different people will look at it differently, and will often think of things in a completely different way. Claiming that we are all choosing to ignore the ‘ugly art’, while many above are describing how much we enjoy it, is, quite simply, wrong. And insulting us about it doesn’t magically make you right, or better than us – it just makes you appear close minded and petty.
I’m not sure why I’m really bothering with this – it’s obvious you aren’t interested in constructive disscussion.
……….meh. I’ve typed it, so I might as well post it.
And I do hope that I am wrong about you. That you’ll actually think about what you’re saying, and try to be more open-minded.
…..I’m not holding my breath though…………..
you seem like a decent guy so ill lay out why im saying these things.
no, the art on the most recent page of gunnerkrigg is not absolutely photo perfect- for example, donlan’s eyes (the guy) are obviously not what actual eyes look like. there are indeed comic elements, you’re correct. however, it is much more consistently stylized then the art in goblins. and the key there is stylized: siddell is a really good artist and is CHOOSING to draw those eyes on the character because he wants him to look a certain way. he also clearly understands anatomy very well: look at annie’s pose in panel five. that is very accurate to how a girl would be standing. unfortuantely this isnt a very dynamic page so i cant point out more extreme positions, but going through the story if you look at the way people stand and sit and walk and run, the poses and proportions are pretty close to life. while there are elements that are more comic like, like the way at distance siddell doesnt draw facial features, all the anatomy is really good.
besides anatomy, siddell is really good at coloring and color choice. ill pick a page to illustrate this, though really anything from the coyote chapter could do: http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=486
look at that color. look at the shading and the texture and composition and the way the light is reflecting on the water. sure there are elements of stylization here, but those help pull the page together and make it look better. the most recent page is not as flashy an example, but there are no clashing, ugly color choices, and the shading on the page is pretty minimalist but effective (like in the rocket in the last panel). compare this with the most recent page in goblins, where the shading is simplistic (no more than two tones), which makes everything look flatter. there are also a bunch of ugly panels, especially the middle bottom one with all the clashing elements. the fire adds to that, as its just three colors applied with a maximum softness brush and with a white haze around it. fire doesnt work that way.
is there any page of goblins that looks nearly as good as that coyote page? i just spent a while clicking through the archives going back, and they all have the same simplistic shading, wonky anatomy, and blobby faces. ive heard the excuse hunt gives that its simplistic because of time constraints, but given that hunt works on the comic full time for years now and puts out one page a week, while siddell just recently quit to work on his comic full time and was putting out three (and has months of buffer to boot), its not at all unreasonable to compare the two. if hunt really puts in 56 hour weeks like he says, puts out content at a third the rate of siddell, and it looks much worse, theres really no way you can say that the art in both comics is in any way comparable. siddell is just a better artist.
I’m glad that I was wrong, and that you have actually given this some thought. Sorry if I sounded a bit terse, but the sheer weight of blindly negative comments appearing around here is starting to wear me down a bit.
In answer to your question – this page http://www.goblinscomic.com/10112011/ is one of the better ones in terms of what your talking about, in my opinion.
As well as this one http://www.goblinscomic.com/11082011-2/ and this one http://www.goblinscomic.com/12062011/
Oh, and this one too http://www.goblinscomic.com/12202011-2/
As for your comments about THunt’s work ethic;
1) Yes, he does work as much as he says he does. I know this because whenever he is working, he has the livestream turned on so he can chat with his fans/friends. Not that I’m ever actually on there – timezone differences make that pretty much impossible.
2) This also ties into why he doesn’t have a buffer like Siddel does: if he did, he wouldn’t be able to use the livestream without exposing people to lots of spoilers, and he enjoys the company too much to just stop them. Even if it would mean less work for him in the long run.
3) He updates twice a week. Not once. And if we’re looking at comparing the amounts actually produced during a week, Goblins pages are quite a bit larger than GC pages.
Finally, in reply to your last sentence;
It depends on your definition of ‘better’. And personal opinion is going to vary greatly here. For example, I don’t see the speed at which art is created as an indication of the artists skill, as anyone could slap out a painting in five minutes.
And it would also depend on the preffered styles of both the artist and the viewer – comparing Picasso and Da Vinci, as an example, wouldn’t be easy now, would it? Or Mozart and Eminem? The styles are completely different, and are going to attract support from different people, aren’t they?
In other words; art is a highly subjective medium, and things aren’t always as clear as ‘this one is the best’.
So, I have never read either of these comics, so all I had to go on is the cover pages presented here. And, with that said, Gunnerkrigg Court definitely. I mean Goblins over there has one shitty ass cover going on. So much wasted space. There’s like two characters on a white background with the logo. And then there are some really shittily cropped characters transparently added in below.
Gunnerkrigg Court’s book cover, on the other hand, isn’t anything amazing, but at least it doesn’t look like complete shit.
so what you’re saying is that you just judged two books by their covers and based your vote on which one was prettier? sounds legit.
While I agree with your conclusion that Gunnerkrigg Court is by FAR the better webcomic, you realize that you are LITERALLY judging a book by its cover right? At least give them a read before voting!
I actually have started reading Goblins since then. I hope GKC at least isn’t unfunny dogshit.
Besides this is a completely garbage competition anyways who even gives a shit about who votes based on what
The only terrible thing about Gunnerkrigg is Boxbot.
In all seriousness though, if you’re looking for a funny comic: these are not what you’re looking for. Sure, Gunnerkrigg Court can certainly be funny at times, but it’s not primarily a humour comic; it’s more of a- well… I want to say drama but that’s not it at all. It’s like a really good book, but in webcomic form. Okay, that was a pretty meaningless description. Just… just read GKC. You’ll see (hopefully). But don’t just read the first 2 or 3 chapters. In comparison to the amazing chapters that appear later on, they are terrible.
Thanks for this information about Gunnerkrigg Court, Mr. other person with the same name as me. :) I had made it through about 2 chapters when forming my initial impressions of it. I’ll go back and read a few more sometime soon, and see if my opinion of it improves. :) Although Goblins managed to hook me pretty quickly, and I’m pretty content voting for it and confident that it’s more suited to my personal tastes, and will be following it in the future, maybe if I read more of Gunnerkrigg Court I’ll decide to add that to my regular reading list as well. :) I’ve found a lot of good comics through this tourney; happy to add another one to the list if I decide I like Gunnerkrigg that much after all. :)
To ye who has my name, but in red: (lol)
It’s nice too see that not everyone here is unwilling to give things a chance, instead taking their impressions from others’.
Here’s basically how my opinion on Gunnerkigg changes over the course of my read through:
Chapters 1 – 5: meh. It’s good enough that I’ll keep reading because it shows some promise, but I really hope the whole thing isn’t like this
Chapters 6 – 13: Okay, this is definitely improving. So far it seems a bit little over-hyped, but it’s pretty good. Going to bookmark this.
Chapters 14 – 19: Now I see what all the fuss is about. This just keeps getting better!
Chapters 20 – 30: BEST. COMIC. EVER.
Chapter 31: Welp, this certainly explains some things. Going to have to re-read everything now!
Chapter 32 – present: Yep, still awesome.
lol at all these neckbeards trying to convince us goblins isn’t shit
I love you
Coming from an anonymous poster, that means so much. The only thing that this competition is showing me is that GKC readers can be real assholes. (No offense to you GKC readers who aren’t assholes, but some you might consider peers like the above really speak poorly for your camp.)
You’re allowing loud minority to influence your thought on what is a largely quiet, nice group? You know how easily manipulated you seem right now?
Goblins is nice if you like ‘comic’ read as humor.
A lot of people seem to find webcomics with a large dose of it fun to read.
And I’m one of them.
If I wanted a story I read a good Terry Pratchett Discworld book (and I recommended everyone to try them !)
Entertainment for me needs a bigger slice of comedy, that’s why gunnerkrigg isn’t for me.
And that constant bashing of goblins will shame gunnerkrigg readers to be one of them.
Are you trolls claiming to be sports fans while actually being hooligans too ?
Please, can anyone explain to me why GKC is so good? I read through the whole thing and I didn’t find anything that good about it.
are you kidding me? pages like this are objectively beautiful:
right, because objective beauty totally exists.
gb2 deviantart/philosophy 100